Members Daily Post: 16/01/18 (complete)

Section 1, test zone, Notebook horses video

1.All Qualifiers Against Stats Pack/Ratings Pointers

2.Any ‘Notes’ (my subjective thoughts/’tips’)

3.Micro System Test Zone

4.Any general messages/updates etc


1.All Qualifiers Against Stats Pack/Ratings Pointers


Ayr Abandoned – waterlogged 




Hereford: no stats profile this season




H1/H3 = HorseRaceBase Top Rated or Top 3 Rated (at time of posting)

G1/G3 = Geegeez Gold Speed Ratings (Dr Peter May) Top Rated or Top 3 Rated

I1/I3 =  Inform Racing Speed Ratings – Top Rated or Top 3

14,30 = Geegeez Gold ‘trainer form’ indicators. 14 – 5+ runs last 14 days, 20% win sr OR 51%+ place (inc wins) sr. 30 – 10+ runs last 30 days, 20% win sr OR 51%+ place (inc wins) sr

ES – ‘Elite Squad’ qualifiers:  Flat : HER     Jumps 2017/18HERE>>>

ES + – Elite Squad ‘Plus’ +   (rationale/ angles in link above)

S1-S6 : S = ‘Strategy’ and refers to the ‘advised strategies’ in the link below. S1 = ‘Strategy 1’. Added on morning of racing along with the price.

‘Advised Flat Strategies‘: Flat 2017 Read HERE>>>   (updated to end 12th Nov – End of Flat 2017)

‘Advised Jumps Strategies’: Jumps 2017/18 Read HERE>>>  (updated to end 7th Jan 2018)

Research Articles: (TTP reports/Test Zone/Monthly Articles/Big Meetings Notes/David Peat Profiles) READ HERE>>>

IMPORTANT: Welcome Info  HERE>>> (please read) (inc must watch videos :)) 

Contact: email:  –  … or failing that… 



2.Any ‘Notes’ (my subjective thoughts/’tips’)

Test/trial  : ‘NOTES’  (2017: 31/176, +110.75)(2018: 1/10,6p, -1)  (1 point win bets)


With Ayr gone it looks like a quiet enough day here on the jumps front.

I’ll be keeping a close eye on Colt Lightening for the Lacey angle below. He was 8s last night in places and I had a tickle on him, only that. This is a shocker of a race. He is another Lacey youngster that as yet hasn’t learnt how to race/settle. We saw how dangerous they can be when they do- Vado Forte hacking up at Warwick on his second handicap start…he benefited from a very strong pace there that allowed him to drop his head. His jockey switched him off and he was just getting better/learning with experience. In hindsight his second the run before, at Southwell, was even more impressive given he pulled the whole way round there. I only had a ‘tickle’ on him also and of course when they win like that you curse for not having more on! I’ll be a content ‘horse player’ one day. It seemed he relished the ground as well which was a complete unknown, built into the price. Colt Lightening has a similar profile… he was keen LTO on bottomless ground. Being PU could be a blessing in disguise as he didn’t have a hard race as such. He could have hated heavy and apparently it is ‘only’ soft here, good to soft in places. (it may turn Heavy if rain, but settling is more his problem) Tom Scudamore is booked and he may have more luck settling him. They will either try and be more patient and hope they go too quick, or they will try and settle him near/off the front. We will know within a couple of furlongs whether he will go close…if he drops his head and settles, I won’t fall off my seat if he has about 10lb+ in hand. He will show that to be the case one day. Were he 8s+ i’d probably tip him as a notes horse, 6s seems ok, but given his keenness LTO and the fact i’m not convinced there will be a strong pace on, i wasn’t sure that was overly generous. Hopefully he wins like a 2s shot.


3.Micro System Test Zone



R Hobson (33/1< guide)

12.20 Heref – Etoo Sport 20/1 UP 40/1 (‘DNQ’)


T Lacey (any odds)

2.30 Heref – Colt Lightening  13/2 WON 15/2 


TTP All-Weather 



4.Any general messages/updates etc

Results Update: Summary below, link in Key to be updated asap

Weekly Results Update: Advised Strategies 8th Jan 2018 – 14th Jan


Weekly TOTAL (advised strategies) (Section 1): 

  • Backing all strategy quals every time they hit a strategy: 4/48,22p, +14
  • Backing all strategy quals just once, regardless of how many strategies they hit: 2/32, -4
  • S1 (1/8,6p, +9) S2 (2/18,7p, +10) S3 (1/7,2p, +10) S3A (0/6,3p, -6) S4 (0/5,3p, -5) S5 (0/4,1p, -4)


NOTES (‘tips’, Section 2):  0/9,5p, -9

TEST ZONE (Jumps angles) : 2/13,4p, +7


Thoughts… well a good end to the week with a 16/1 winner for a few strategies, most notably for me S1, which out of all the bigger priced strategies (well, all bar S4) I have the most confidence in on evidence to date/the logic behind it. Hopefully they can repeat 2017s numbers but proof will be in the eating. Coincidentally that 16/1 winner was another older horse wearing first time blinkers. They seemed to do the trick. Elsewhere there were many many placed horses again, plenty going close… 2 of the S4 seconds were neck defeats, painful. And a few biggies came second again. We need a few more of those to start winning but the consistency is more positive than negative. So I keep telling myself!

My ‘Notes’ had a frustrating time, the woodwork rattled plenty. Work to do still on my approach to the jumpers. Yet to hit the heady heights of the flat ‘notes’ horses. The ‘test zone’ jumps angles had another good week, another +7 to the pot after +11 last week. Another decent source of ‘starting points’ for bets, if nothing else.

On we go.




The Week That Was: Weekly Article 

To follow…. I thought i would record a video for the ‘notebook’ section of this week’s offering.

There were 11 horses that caught my eye, most qualifying on this page somewhere.  In the video I spend a couple of minutes on each, within HorseRaceBase, explaining why they caught my eye and what conditions ‘may’ see them in a better light.

The eleven horses…

Pollys Pursuit / Rosie McQueen / Broadway Buffalo / The Last of Them / Ink Master / Sir Egbert / Le Capricieux / Slanelough / Swashbuckle / Astaroland / Zaidiyn 




I have updated the research repository post, which you should see if clicking ‘home’ , or can read HERE>>>

‘NEW!’ (from when this post was last updated) Posts include…


(weekly articles, all in one place…)



The Big Read: The Magic FormulaREAD HERE>>>

Kerry Lee (free systems): READ HERE>>>

Betting School Monthly Article: (pulls together most of the weekly articles research from recent weeks) January 2018 : READ HERE>>>



Post Comments

Do join in the conversation below, we're a friendly bunch.. all questions welcome, and do share your selections or thoughts

43 Responses

  1. Two winners today at 6/1 and 11/2 to add 5.5pts to the pot.

    Kempton tomorrow. Qualifiers as follows:
    5.10 Daring Guest 9/1
    5.40 Eljaddaaf 8/1 & Intransigent 7/1
    6.10 Sharp Reminder 10/1 & Surfa Rosa 6/1
    7.10 Howardian Hills 10/1
    7.40 Tred Softly11/1
    8.10 Wordiness 11/1
    1pt win each

    Good Luck

  2. Another great day Ken, I’m expecting an email from A few bookies soon “thanks but no thanks” in the subject field

    1. Yes that does worry me also but, so far, only Paddy and Betunfair SB have stopped my BOG but I can still bet with them to around £100 profit per bet if necessary. I try to switch companies a lot but I expect it is only a matter of time before they catch up with me if I remain successful.

      1. many thanks for your hard work Ken, i also have to place my bets the night before and have been getting some good results from betdaq beating your advised prices 70% of the time even though the market hasn’t really been formed i just leave my order knowing i’ll get xsp if unmatched, i.e. yesterday i got 7.6 on Watersmeet and 7.8 on Outer Space.
        just checked and have been matched @ 12.5 Wordiness, 7.8 Surfa Rosa, 12.5 Daring Guest and 10.5 Eljaddaaf, obviously i miss out on any big drifters but am very happy so far.
        on a more general note bookie wise my personal opinion is that they are a disgrace with limited,suspended and cancelled accounts , iv’e just started using Betbright(max £15 stake) and i’m probably doing to well lets see how long i stay on.

    1. Apart from Betfair, where the market is weak anyway, the other exchanges are very weak the night before when Ken wants to get on. The markets on the all weather dont get going until 10 AM on the exchanges. There is not the interest in the all weather to stimulate action.

      You end up down the route of 25 different online accounts and spreading your money around them (I have been there). Takes a bit of time.

      1. I get your points there. I’m only betting small stakes so able to match most or better the night before. I do notice the market is weak though. Thanks for the info guys. Work gets in the way for me so it’s easier for me to use BF.

    2. What Martin said Chris. Early morning may be an option if I get restricted. Also you don’t get BOG with exchanges. Sometimes you get better odds using BFSP but my own calculations over 3 months show early/BOG comes out twice as much as BFSP.

      1. I’m getting most matched to your advised prices or better the night before at the moment, i’m away to work at 7am most days so its easier for me the night before. My main point is that I’m not one for spending time managing multiple accounts to make that bit extra knowing restrictions and account closures are just around the corner. I’m beating BFSP for now but not as good as BOG. Its criminal how bookies can just cut you back as soon as you make a profit.

        1. Managing multiple accounts is hard if you work full time and so have a limited time window. You also cant do a ‘cash run’ by hitting the high Street in the morning and placing bets in various shops. The point Ken mentions about BOG and exchanges; you can post at the price you want on the exchanges and then come back to it later and then if you dont get a match change it or dont bet. But again you need the time to do it when you are likely at work! No perfect solution really if you are time limited. Be like Josh and I and live a life of decadence and get used to people looking at you awkwardly when you tell them what you do!

  3. Seymour Star Hereford Tuesday 15:05 1pt e/w-At first it looked competitive however I think Seymour Star looks a little overpriced here. Signed off last season at the track beating a horse which has since racked up a hat trick including winning a decent race at Cheltenham. The 3rd has also won since and he was giving both horses 6lbs. Now he completely blew up on his seasonal re-appearance but he generally needs the run. Charlie Hammond takes off a valuable 7lbs. Alistair Ralph has had a winner recently and is 1/5, 3p at the track. Given the rain the fact he has placed on heavy and stays further will be a plus.
    Truckers Highway Hereford Tuesday 15:40 1pt e/w-Another which looks a bit big. His last 3 wins have been off 115 to 116 and he is back to his last winning mark. Before this season he has never won off such a long break or good ground so his last win was eye-catching. There are excuses for his last 3 runs and he wasn’t far away in a class 2 LTO. Has won over further on heavy so won’t mind the rain tomorrow. Has a 6/12 record in class 4 handicap chases worth less than £6k so this is very much his level. Should be able to lead or race prominently. Trainer is 2/7, 3p in Hereford handicap chases but this is his first chase runner here since 2011. Edwards is 5/16, 7p in handicap chases for the trainer since 2016.

    1. Hi Nick,

      I have backed Otter Moon for a Midnight Legend offspring micro system that I use.

      Was pleased to see your analysis of that race too as I had suggested the same over on the bettingschool forum.

      ‘The other in the race that I like is the top weight, Seymour Star 18/1. He was in excellent form at the tail end of last season winning 3 on the bounce – one at today’s track over a slightly longer trip (extra 2f). He was top weight that day but that didnt stop him winning and on ground GS, the same as today’s.

      He beat Coole Cody that day, who subsequently won on SS’s seasonal reappearance at Cheltenham. I am not sure what went wrong that day but he’s worth another chance today at 18/1.’

      Fingers crossed today.

      All the best


        1. Yep well done.. may need further again on that evidence and/or he hit a fitness flatspot before finding second wind. I’d add him to a tracker, can see him popping up in a 3m handicap hurdle somewhere. Had a big weight on his back. Kicking myself a bit as did look through that race (a friend fancied yours also, I threw 5 at him) briefly this morning and all those at top of market had so many questions..esp trip/ground. Contemplated dutching the biggies (for change), winner was 20s earlier. Bottled it. Never mind!

  4. On the subject of Betunfairsportsbook. I have been using BF since its inception and have recently had a decent run of form albeit mostly to £15 stakes. Last week I had a bigger bet on a GeeGeez SOTD that I liked took 11/2 BOG returned 7/1.
    When I queried this I received this explanation-
    Thanks for getting in touch. With regards to Bet receipt O/0774038/0001104, double checked on it, and the starting price is of 7/1, however, this changes in accordance with the amount of clients betting. In this case the best odds were settled as 11/2 which have provided you with the winnings of £585. I’m sorry for the inconvenience, but the bet was settled correctly and the best odds at that time were of 11/2.
    I called this out _
    This reply makes no sense. Since when was BOG only available to a limited number of people. I struck the bet this morning and did not select any enhanced terms so it should be a straightforward BOG bet.

    Best odds guaranteed means exactly that, how can how many people have struck the same bet have any relevance?

    Unless I receive a satisfactory explanation I shall immediately refer this to the betting ombudsman.
    BFS replied –
    I would like to apologise for the previous e-mail. From what I can see, unfortunately the reason why you were not paid out on SP is that due to ordinary business practice your account unfortunately has been restricted from Best Odds Guaranteed. These decisions are largely taken due to internal cost control on what is effectively a risk based product and any bookmaker will naturally be cautious about this.

    Apologies for any inconveniences caused.

    Let me know if there’s anything else I can help with. Or maybe our FAQs will come in handy?
    SO I SAID – Hello Darjana,
    Well that is an explanation that at least makes sense. However since I have had no notification of this restriction and believe that in the interests of fair practice, in order to treat me equably, this wager should be paid out at sp. I would not have placed the bet with Sportsbook had I known of this restriction, I believe that imposing it retrospectively to my placing the bet contravenes your own terms and conditions Clause 7 (reproduced below) as Betfair had not made reasonable endeavours to give me notice before suspending the BOG concession.

    Suspension or termination
    Either we or you may suspend or terminate your account at any time, either with or without cause, upon notice (we will use our reasonable endeavours to give such notice to you either before or after suspending or terminating your account).

    This poor practice is compounded by the attempt by your colleague to fob me off with a spurious reason for the bet not being paid out at sp. If this is not put right I shall feel obliged to refer the matter to IBAS.

    Clearly I will no longer after this event be placing early bets with Sportsbook but given my overall long history with Betfair over which I am sure I am hugely in debit I do find this decision surprising and unfair..

    Then came silence until I wrote another angry email after which I got a phone call offering me a £75 bonus as compensation for the missing £135. I turned on FULL OUTRAGE and eventually the craven dogs capitulated.

    What a shower.

    1. well done Hugh, a lot of firms apply BOG exclusions to account. It really does smack of double standards where they offer BOG then slowly remove it from customer accounts over a period of time who have the audacity to be a touch in front.

    2. Standard scandalous behaviour. The powers that be are always ripping off the likes us in every way possible. I feel a rant coming on …I’d better end here.

    3. I too have recently been banned from Betfair’s BOG sportsbook. I have been with Betfair for years and am a small bet punter. I complained to Betfair but they would not change their decision. I wanted to complain to an outside body and they referred me to IBIS but this body does not deal with this type of complaint. Effectively there is no recourse to this ‘business practice’.
      I emailed The Gambling Commission, who do not deal with complaints, to get their reaction. As expected they said absolutely nothing. Punters need a truly independent body to face up to the bean counting odds compilers.

  5. It seems to me that when you win these days against the bookies you are committing a crime surley getting the best price and winning is the name of the game,I was restricted by sportsbook and paddy power at the same time funny that,still I can still lose my house on their online casinos,so much for responsible gambling eh

    1. Ah yep, well Betfair/Paddy Power are one company now, sharing data etc etc, so if you get restricted in one, I suspect they apply to both. Much like Ladbrokes/Coral no doubt. Not sure it’s healthy.
      All these issues are progressing in Parliament and there is a big debate next week I think, or soon. Simon Rowlands is presenting as chair of the bettors forum, which is gaining increasing weight. Mr Geegeez (Matt B) sits on that board and some other distinguished folk. Talk of the Aussie model of minimum liability guarantees is increasing.

      In terms of BOG… it is annoying… I suppose we forget how lucky we are as such a thing never used to exist. I forget when BOG came in but it is only a relatively recent phenomenon. I suppose if you think a horse is value when you take a price, if it drifts you can put more on. But really over time we should be successful enough with the prices we take,otherwise we may be doing it wrong. For me these bookies have lost the skill of their craft, and their incessant focus on getting problem gamblers through the door (or turning bettors into such gamblers) has negatively impacted on the core and on us. All these other ridiculous concessions and offers etc has detracted from the core skill of bookmaking.

      But, that’s a long topic for another day. These issues are starting to be aired at a much higher level. We shall see what transpires in time.

      Hugh’s is an example of what shits they can be. No intention of fair treatment or being clear/honest from the outset. Nice that the threat of using the Ombudsman works though…that’s a good sign of the mood – i think bookies know they are about to have a light shone on their shoddy practices.


      1. With Betfair I asked for an allowance of BOG, no bet more than £100 single. They said no but allowed me £50 BOG if I pay 8% commission. It pays me to do so I worked out but I do not know how long it will last now? Maybe you should join the Betfair Trading Community, who can act as a ‘Union Rep’ for you re disputes. It does cost £30 per month to join though!
        I made a contact at Betfair when attending the Matchbook traders conference in November. He said that the PP model moves it nearer to a ‘Bookie’ model and so the days of open trading on the site may be history soon? Try Matchbook or the other exchanges sometimes.

      2. I would prefer to be able to bet a minimum amount even if its like £200 of liability per bookmaker than to have BOG. Until that happens you have to treat bookmakers like they treat you. They make things up as they go along, break the rules and treat customers with disdain so you’re forced to do the same.

      3. Ah Josh, you haven’t heard the momentous news that out good friend Matt was elected chairman of the Bettors Forum last week.

        1. Ah, that passed me by! Did he make an announcement? I can’t keep up. He’ll do a good job there…very strong opinions and not afraid to voice them! As well as knowing his onions like few others.

  6. Its a pain trying to deal with these so called Bookmakers , i got restricted with PP very early on after opening an account ….. i wasnt even winning with them but once you start nicking the best prices then its Good night …. I feel your pain Gents .

    onward and upwards …. 2.0 H .. The Kings writ 7/1 , well backed when a faller last time and the form with “apples” (ptp) should mean hes well in !:) … running off 105 … the 3 in front in Exeter novice hurdle are all rated 125 and some … back to a better trip today must have a squeak

    Good Luck

  7. BOG as I recall was introduced in early 2000’s as a promotional strategy by the major bookies to entice punters over to online a/c’s. At that time their core business (ie profit) was still from racing. They also made a large contribution to sponsorship etc and so had quite a long leash as far as any threat of government interference went.
    Fast forward 15 years and the whole premis is entirely different. As one senior politician stated “They are no longer seen as the ‘guardian’ of horse racing but as a money grabbing, anti-social behemoth who need, at the very least , a severe pruning of the feathers”.
    How quickly the tide will turn is anyone’s guess but that long leash has definitely got a shorter life than it once had.


  8. Two things I have noticed recently since the start of the year has been that in each case certain Firms are using the comments…

    BOG available “to eligible customers”…that’s 365 if I recall

    the other thing I have noticed is that BOG is ” not available the day before Racing” which might be W Hill ….

  9. When following some of the great tipsters on the forum sometimes there can be to much choice I wonder if you guys out in betting land can suggest what is a good number of tipster’s to follow for a portfolio

    1. Hi Paul,
      I am of the firm belief that less can be more.. you don’t want to get to a point where following a variety of approaches is stressful, getting bets on is stressful, and you are left with no mental capacity to apply your own thought to anything. But we are all different on that score so it depends what you want to achieve. Some fun, entertainment, engagement, and with any luck a nice bit of extra cash to spend on the odd luxury isn’t a bad aim for the recreational punter.
      I suppose if I use myself as an example…

      1. strategies i follow S1 + S4 systematically, while picking a choosing what else when flicking through, with S3A, S5 up there for strong consideration. And also the jumps angles in the test zone, I don’t follow all systematically but they each get a good look, esp bigger priced ones.

      2.I follow SP2A, that’s the only external service I follow…while dipping in and out of Stat of The Day on geegeez.

      3. I then have my members ‘notes’ and my free tips.. those solve my daily desire to ‘solve the puzzle’ and arguably give me most personal satisfaction, and most frustration!

      And that’s it for the core. And in truth that gives me plenty to focus on and ticks enough boxes for me.

      I’ll then flick through the comments, time allowing, and will look at any jumps tips from Nick and others, and see if I agree! / want to have a little nibble, or a bigger nibble. I am no great fan of the AW but Ken may be peaking my interest. But by the time I get around to that list my head is a bit fried.. I haven’t been backing those regularly, but don’t lose any sleep at not having won 100/150+ points or whatever it is. Whereas others may now be following his list as the first thing they do!

      But we are all different on that score. It is very much personal preference. I don’t think you’d want more than 1-3 ‘tipping services’ in your portfolio, and certainly not many that take a volume approach, 6/8+ tips a day. But that’s just me.

      My main buzz, other than trying to find profitable systematic approaches, is with horses like Buywise…I could have £2.50 or £250 on and my reaction post race is the same. I enjoy the thrill of it, and being right. Which is rare and why you must enjoy it. I see it is a puzzle solving exercise rather than money making. But I could be an oddball on that front. (not losing, rather than winning X, may well be the foundation)

    2. Shout out to Ian and the guys at SP2A. Clondaw Rigger sluiced up in the 2.00 off bottom weight, 10/1 > 7/1, ran them ragged and sluiced up. I would have three, SP2A, Stat of the Day on Geegeez and Bet Alchemist (weekends and big meetings only). Regular profits and not expensive.

      1. Yep Nicky is good at Betalchemist, hit a rough patch as all tipster do. I should add his add back to the list on the right! He was an ‘approved’ service, probably too quick to pull. Another student of Matt B, we are a fine bunch in general haha. He does know his stuff and as you say, focused on weekends/big races, so no bad addition to a small portfolio. Wouldn’t put anyone off his. 6 year record stands test of time.

    3. Without trying to upset anyone here the only thing I would add here is be patient and only follow someone with at least 3 or ideally 6 months worth of results behind them. We all know the variance when it comes to gambling so just because someone has a good month or two doesn’t meant they will have a successful year. Not very easy to stay disciplined but worth it if you can achieve it.

  10. Josh
    pleased to hear that there is going to be a debate in Parliament however read the other week that MPs receive most benefits in kind from bookmakers than any other source so doubt anything will be done.
    Blair wanted Blackpool to be the Vegas of the north and they lifted advertising restrictions that after a decade is now showing major problems in gambling,mentioned the other week that 12 plus Premier league football clubs have bookmakers logos on their shirts to entice the kids in to gambling from a young age.

    1. Colin, yep, I suspect their lobbying tentacles are wrapped around the necessary cogs! We shall see. Matt Hancock is now the minister for Culture/Media/Sport, i assume that’s in his remit but not sure. He is my ‘local’ MP back in Suffolk, which covers he is well up on the racing scene/interests etc. Time will tell. But there are more public noises than I have head before, inc from various regulators. Really the bookies should be acting first… I think that new SkyBet advert with Jeff Stelling, is some indication of a new self awareness… I think they are expecting more scrutiny soon. But the proof will be in the eating.

    2. It’s your second sentence Colin that brought the above MP’s statement (can’t bloody think of his name atm). There is a noticeable raising of heads out of the sand when questions are raised in the house that would have remained buried until recently.

    1. Arguably the most important aspect is handling ‘missing out’ – as soon as you can learn to deal with not backing a decent priced winner etc, it is more enjoyable! That took me plenty of time but I miss/ignore many nice priced winners, but I am happy with my approach and my progress over time. As soon as you can accept that it seems different I think. And you can also enjoy other people’s success more.

  11. Good call re Colt Lightening Josh, on at 8/1. I was worried at the top of the hill, I thought he was about to stop himself when in the lead! Scu got him going again and held off Dickie J, top ride, deserves praise, you and Scu.

    1. Yep, that angle keeps churning out unexposed horses we should look at very closely! Given the nature of the angle with every horse you live in hope that today will be the day they show more/fulfil potential..knowing if they do they should be well handicapped. Brilliant ride by Scu..can see why he was booked. Settling prob not his only issue, clearly needs plenty of stoking along. Prob confident he stays 3m and Scu has made sure he’s used that stamina. Rail to help, just dug in. Shame SP wasn’t his price around 8.30 ish, as my notes total would have been boosted, but i’ll cope! I think 6s was only ok given that last run (albeit excuses) and was guessing as to whether he would settle again today. But went to plan. I won’t complain.

      That angle now 7/30,13p, +27 I think.

  12. Nice winner there with Mr Lacey’s colt lighting shame you didnt have a lump on mind you reading the above you may have not been allowed !!!

    1. Ah, well I won’t say what I did when he hit 15/2 again haha.I had a nibble at 8s, and may have doubled that nibble for fear of him being another Vado Forte. He settled much better there and that, combined with ground, has helped. Not sure of he worse sheepskin noseband LTO or not. May have helped. Glad you had a piece.

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